[ColorForth] Let's talk philosophy

[Jack Johnson <fragment@xxxxxxx>]

On Thursday 29 November 2001 00:00, you wrote:
> I heard a fascinating analogy from Joe Zott.  He said
> that when electrical motors were expensive early
> in the last century the first home appliances all
> shared the same electric motor.  You would reconfigure
> the equipment for each job.  Want to mix? Attach
> the motor to the mixer.  Want to ... ?  Attach the
> motor to the ...   

Funny you mention that.  I was in a museum last weekend and saw that exact 
thing with an engine from the turn of the century.  One engine, a dozen 
different farm implements, and a lot of belts.

> Now remember, programmers like all that ridiculous
> stuff, that is what makes them special. The more
> ridiculous the more special they feel. But average
> people just want to get the job done they really
> don't want to have to become computer experts to
> do things can be so simple.

The hard part is that, at least for now, the average person (heck, even the 
average programmer) either can't get the right tool for the job (because it 
doesn't exist) or doesn't have the skills to build the tool.  That kind of 
leaves us in the land of the ridiculous, with the clowns as the architects.

But, in another sense, programmers are just average people at a different 
level.  Some people just want to compress some data so they use someone 
else's library because they don't want to become a video compression expert.

I can imagine that there are quite a few language creators who got started 
because, in the end, they really didn't want to become Fortran or C experts.

> Chuck also thinks that everyone should not use the same
> hardware or software or do everything the same way.
> He says the problem is that "things get locked in" and,
> well "they can get locked in wrong, forever?"

And I agree.  What I'm not certain about--and maybe no one is--is how Forth 
changes things.  I *believe* it changes things, but I'm unable to explain how.

I can also find examples where the idea of things getting locked in wrong, 
forever, is brought into Forth, just like the 10k word dictionaries you 
mentioned.  Forth provides a solid footing for a different perspective, but I 
suppose it doesn't keep one from being myopic.

I love to read what Chuck has written, and the transcripts from his talks, 
because he really does seem to have a completely different perspective, and 
one that's not easily articulated (or duplicated).

> Yes but some of us have heard this so many times.  Why do
> we need 'C'?  Every program has already been written
> in Fortran or Cobol.  Cobol is clearly a much better
> language because it is what most programs are written
> is so why do these odd people want to start all over
> with a new language named 'C'?  Why?  ;-)

It reminds me of the westward expansion of the U.S.  You look at some of the 
little towns along the Oregon Trail in the middle of nowhere, with bad water 
and worse weather, and you realize that somewhere along the line someone 
said, "You know, this is good enough."  They were happy to have water, a 
little land that no one else was going to fight them for, and a break from 
the endless wagon ride.

Part of me admires those who forged ahead, and part of me admires those who 
were willing to settle.  And when I think of a world with inexpensive 
computing appliances, I can see someone saying, "This is good enough," and no 
one bothers to crack it open or build one markedly different for a decade.  
So when I think of C or Fortran or Cobol or Pascal I think of it more as our 
computing heritage, and when I ask a question like, "Will the 25x ever 
compile C," what I'm really asking is when we've been doing this for 600 
years instead of 60, will someone say, "You know, 57% of all these computing 
devices use at least four of these six algorithms.  Maybe this should be a 
library..."?

> I can't tell you how many times I showed him some
> 100K program that did xyz to have him say, "I wouldn't
> user it.  I would write a few lines of code to do
> that."  At first I thought he was being unrealistic
> until I saw him do it again and again.

I fear that none of us will ever learn to do what Chuck does so adeptly.  
He'll be the Tesla of computing.

> I really hope that nobody will expect Chuck Moore to
> provide them with a ticket to heaven.  In fact I really
> dislike when people even talk like that.  There are
> people who write that we are dangerous cultists etc.
> etc. and little things like that just encourage them.

No one ever provides a ticket, but sometimes I suspect Chuck knows where the 
stairs are.  ;-)

I don't believe in panaceas (panaceae?), but I do believe in progress.  I 
believe that things can be done qualitatively better, and I think the work 
that has gone into colorForth exemplifies the way to avoid doing things 
wrong, forever.  Where I'm hoping this conversation might lead is towards the 
how rather than the why.

I think on his Web site, Chuck describes how he thinks using color to provide 
functional syntax cues frees the brain from being locked in an interpretive 
mode and allows it to focus on the task at hand.  That's not only an 
intriguing theory, but also a key to understanding how altering a tool can 
alter the tool-user.  Forth gives a programmer an arena in which to factor a 
problem, but is this something unique to Forth or is it a skill learned out 
of necessity when first learning the language?  If it *is* just a skill, what 
would Chuck's Perl programs look like?  If it's something intrinsic in Forth, 
is it also something that can be developed in a new or preexisting language?  
Could Microsoft come out with "C-Flat" that fostered the same problem-solving 
processes, but using wildly different constructs?

> > [directed to Chuck] Why colorForth?
> > What brought you here?  Not only "Where do you want to go
> > today?" but where do you want to be tomorrow?  And how
> > do you get there from here?
>
> I actually think that Chuck has addressed those issues
> for us. 

Actually, that was directed at you, at everyone.  Chuck has his own reasons 
for ending up here, and those are well documented.  But what does Jeff Fox 
see in colorForth that keeps him coming back for more?

-Jack
------------------------

To Unsubscribe from this list, send mail to Mdaemon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx with:
unsubscribe ColorForth
as the first and only line within the message body
Problems   -   List-Admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Main ColorForth site   -   http://www.colorforth.com