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Re: [colorforth] Hello - and where to begin?

Jeff Fox wrote:

Chuck has always wanted to make a nice PC with only Forth chips,
only Forth OS, only Forth compiler etc. and IntellaSys will give
him the ability to do this. He has expressed interest in making
a colorforth PC out of SEAforth chips.  But people should
understand that when we say OS we don't mean Windows or Linux,
we mean Forth. And OS in Forth has a different meaning than
when refering to popular PC OS.
Well then ... suppose you build a SEAforth PC -- wrap up a few billion or trillion Forth MIPS in a box with RAM, some mass storage, a keyboard, video, audio and mouse, running colorforth. Where would this machine have a *compelling* selling proposition?
You don't have floating point hardware, so high-performance scientific computing is out. So is document search and indexing a la Google for the same reason. You don't run C so most conventional software won't run on it. Game programmers don't do Forth any more, although perhaps you could find some upstart game development shop with the next "killer game".
What else do people do with high-performance computers? Well ... crypto, large-scale finite algebraic computation in general, maybe some kinds of simulation, some kinds of CAD. But that's really it, I think. Massively parallel non-floating-point machines have been built before, and they've invariably foundered on the difficulty of programming them and the lack of demand for MIPS without MFLOPS/GFLOPS/TFLOPS/PFLOPS. 

It took a lot of work to create OLPC and it is available now.
Perhaps Forth processors will make Forth PC available at some
time in the future, but OLPC are available now.
For a limited definition of availability, yes, and also subject to the same sort of competitive pressures that define other high-tech markets. To be blunt, Intel is trying to kill the XO and probably will succeed. :( 


Sure.  But a similarly clocked Forth chip with a built in video
generator and video accelerator would be a few cents.  For a few
bucks you could have a lot of them.  The Intel compatibility
is good if your goal is compatibility but from the perspective
of a Forth programmer it makes programming in Forth less
attractive than programming Forth chips.  So it is good if
promoting Intel is important while Forth chips are more about
promoting Forth.
Well, yeah ... I've seen the hoops Anton Ertl and Bernd Paysan have had to jump through to get something as simple as ANS Forth to perform acceptably when the inner interpreter is compiled by GCC and run on a "modern" x86 with caches, branch prediction, etc. It's ugly.
Yes, you can outperform that with a Forth machine. In their day, Lisp machines could outperform a VAX with the same hardware costs too. Lisp survives, but neither the Lisp machine nor the VAX does today. :) 

If the goal is to run C, and Linux is written in C, then using a
processor designed to run C will be a good fit.  And if you need all
that software then you need big memory spaces for the C.
Actually, it's the other way around. The C compilers and operating systems are designed to keep the processor busy. :) 


That's true.  If you can't program and need to use off the shelf
software there is a lot of code in the C world on the shelf. This
is good for promoting C and keeping the C programmers working.
Forth programmers like the idea that it is fun to write software
in Forth.  And we tend to think that writing application is
easier when we don't have to deal with C being the biggest
factor driving the requirements.
Yes, Forth programmers and Ruby programmers both emphasize the fact that their language is fun. I think Lisp and Scheme programmers probably feel the same way about their language. 


The $10 disposable PC for the third world was very different
idea than OLPC.  OLPC has a remarkably low price and remarkable
list of features considering that it is a C machine and it
can probably run Forth as well as a $10 Forth PC if someone
decides to produce those.  Until then OLPC is available and
will be a great Forth platform with great potential with
little competing in its niche.
Well ... you can't really buy an XO. And as far as "little competing in its niche", that has proved to be untrue. Intel is playing hardball with its ClassMate, and for "adult" users, there's the ASUS Eee. After all, Forth will run on anything with a processor, RAM and some mass storage. gForth in particular will run on anything with a GCC cross-development tool chain. 

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